Wanxiang blockchain 2021-04-01 21:56:08 阅读数:880
jianqi （ host ）：
Here you are B My friends who are watching this live broadcast , Good evening, everyone ！ This is the online open course of honeycomb College held by Wanxiang blockchain laboratory and new chain space , This is the 42nd issue , The theme is “ About Ethereum 2.0 The roadmap , What's on the mind of the research brain ？” I'm the host today, ah Jian .
It's a great honor to be the host of this round table , As someone who cares about Ethereum , What makes me even more excited is that I can hear three very senior researchers interpret and judge the Ethereum roadmap tonight .
Now let's invite three guests to introduce themselves .
Pan Zhixiong ：
Hello everyone ！ I'm pan Zhixiong from Lianwen .
At present, I devote more energy to the application of Ethereum itself and its surroundings , It's more about observing ecology from the perspective of media , The focus and depth of vertical community application are not the same as that of research institutions , Today is mainly to discuss and study with you .
Yao Xiang ：
Hello everyone ！ I'm Yao Xiang , come from MYKEY.
I mainly focus on Ethereum's underlying research , for example EIP Content , Also doing archaeological work , Observe how this successful system has grown up step by step , It's a valuable thing . I majored in cryptography , I am more interested in the technical solutions of password security . thank you ！
Zheng Jialiang ：
Hello everyone ！ I'm Zheng Jialiang , come from HashKey Capital,HashKey Capital It's an investment organization , I do research from an investment perspective .
Just now I talked with some teachers , I found that several teachers are very good at archaeology , But investment is more about the future . I will learn about Ethereum from different perspectives 2.0, The etheric fang 2.0 It's a very important topic , Several teachers are industry benchmark figures in doing research , It's a great honor to discuss with you a relatively complicated issue . thank you ！
jianqi （ host ）：
Thank you for your self introduction , Today, the round table will officially begin . Today's topic is ETH2.0,ETH2.0 yes 2020 We talked a lot about this year , Now the live audience should have heard it on more than one occasion ETH2.0 I have discussed .
What makes us 2021 At the beginning of the year, back to ETH2.0 topic of conversation ？ Focus on ETH2.0 Friends on the road map may know , stay 2020 year 10 Months ago , There is a common view of Ethereum 2.0 The explanation is , It will be deployed in three phases , Phase0 Realize the consensus mechanism of proof of rights and interests ;Phase1 Test the data throughput of the whole system through fragmentation chain ;Phase2 Add execution to the slicing chain , Turn data throughput into transaction throughput .
In this interpretation , There are three characteristics ：
Emphasis on three stages in order to advance .
Pay more attention to Phase 0 and Phase 2 The milestone significance of ; One is to open the proof of interest , The other is to make fragmentation really Executive , Make the system available .
Although it is possible to PoW The migration time of Ethereum blockchain is Phase 1 After implementation , But it's more likely to be placed in Phase 2 After implementation （ That is, after the whole system is available ）.
This is 10 The explanation I saw a month ago . But in 10 month ,Vitalik In Ethereum magicians Forum 《 With Rollup A road map centered around 》. Combined with other researchers in the open AMA From the information revealed by the event , The etheric fang 2.0 The road map seems to have changed .
1、 It emphasizes Phase 1 With independent goals to achieve , That is to say Rollup The scheme provides space for publishing data ;
2、 Weakened Phase 2 The significance of making the system available , No longer need to wait for Phase 2 The system is available ;
3、Phase 1 The research and implementation of integration will be carried out in parallel .
In view of this public information , We're focusing on keywords today “ The etheric fang 2.0 The roadmap ”, Let's listen to the interpretation and views of three senior researchers .
The first question is , In the view of three researchers , The etheric fang 2.0 Has the road map changed ？ Still say , It's just the push strategy that's changed , Not long-term goals ？
Pan Zhixiong ：
Thank you, ah Jian ！ I think it's obvious , The Ethereum roadmap has clearly changed , And it's a very big change in a very short period of time , The change is very dramatic .
The root cause of this , On the one hand is Vitalik、 The foundation 、 Developers have discovered Rollup This amazing mechanism ; On the other hand, the cross slice in the previous roadmap 、 A series of difficulties, such as piecewise execution . Considering these two aspects , as well as Rollup This set of mechanism has already put the original chain computing + The paradigm of storage has changed completely , To lossless compression on the chain 、 Large scale operations under the chain , Lightweight verification on the chain , This paradigm change can make Ethereum block have a very large expansion .
therefore , I think in the long run ,Rollup It's likely to be part of the Ethereum core agreement , Just like the Ethereum domain name protocol we know now （ENS） equally , Although the path is different ,ENS It was officially cultivated and then released ,ENS You can make your own money . but Rollup There are many solutions , At the beginning of the official period, it was market-oriented 、 The form of funding, the funding part Rollup The plan , But ultimately it needs to be market-oriented PK.
Final Rollup It may not be part of the official agreement , But maybe it's something we can't do without .
jianqi （ host ）：
Very beautiful answer . What do you think of Mr. Yao ？
Yao Xiang ：
I like this topic very much , Is the roadmap really changing ？
First , What should be defined as “ The roadmap ”, Today I specially watched Github Page modification record ,2.0 It's a page with standard documentation ,2.0 Of spec The penultimate revision was made last year 12 month 18 Japan , The revision is Vitalik It's done , Deleted Phase1 and Phase2 Two expressions , Changed to be in AMA Three things mentioned in it ： Light client 、 Merge 、 Fragmentation , Merger and fragmentation are still going on R&D The process of .
（ About merging and fragmentation ） The discussion was very interesting , I'll take you to the chat room first , I'll tell you in the chat room that this is no longer used , Then lead to Discord Go to . The discussion on merger and fragmentation has shifted to Discord Up , Light client has more practical results .
We've been doing archaeological work , There's one thing I haven't got the answer to yet .“2.0” Where is the etymology of , Originally, it was just the upgrading stage of Ethereum Serenity. Why is it called 2.0？ From the perspective of brand 、 The angle of propaganda must have a special meaning , It must mean a very big upgrade .
The earliest point I can find out is 2018 year 3 The workshop in Taipei in May （Taipei Sharding Meetup）, No video found , Relevant information mentions that Vitalik At that meeting, Ethereum 1.0 It's a group of people who are fighting to try to build the world computer , And he thinks 2.0 It's the real world computer . In his opinion 1.0 It's a less complete system .
Look again 2018 In the middle of the year ,2.0 It started with a lot of content ,Casper etc. , You can find it yourself , A lot of content . But the core point is Sharding, Why do I say ？6 At the Ethereum workshop in Taipei ,Hsiao Wei The title of my speech is “What you can do for Ethereum 2.0 a.k.a. Sharding.
a.k.a Sharding What do you mean ？ The etheric fang 2.0 It's about fragmentation , What is the purpose of fragmentation ？ Slicing is a technology , It has a goal , The goal is to improve the scalability of the system . For now, , Ethereum is a single threaded computer , Calculations that can be processed per unit time 、 The amount of data that can be transmitted is limited , Slicing is turning a single threaded system into a multithreaded system .
If we recognize our scalability goals , Then I don't think the road map has changed , It even shows rationality and pragmatism . stay Rollup After the scheme appeared , The way we think about computation and validation has changed , Adjust the way forward , It's very reasonable to move in a more current direction .
If Ethereum 2.0 The strategy of promotion is fragmentation , There is no doubt that the road map has changed , Although all the discussion about fragmentation is going on actively , But until now, there is no special research result that can be shown to the public , Even the industry has many misunderstandings about fragmentation , To this day, there are still many people who stay in the past two years' understanding of the road map and progress , Even outdated second-hand information , It caused a lot of inaccurate communication .
That's my view .
jianqi （ host ）：
If my initial problem was Ethereum 2.0 Has our roadmap changed ？ Mr. Yao's answer is Ethereum 2.0 What does that mean? ？ well , Listen to Mr. Zheng .
Zheng Jialiang ：
The first two teachers spoke very well , It occurred to me that , What Mr. Yao just said about capacity expansion .
Vitalik stay 2020 At the beginning of the year Twitter Explained Ethereum 2.0 What is it? ,ETH2.0 is all by scaling, Everything is around expansion .
Within my understanding ,Sharding It's an expansion ,Rollup It's also an expansion . Since it's all capacity expansion , There will be comparisons between several options , In terms of the current Ethereum state ,Rollup yes better solution,Sharding Can't come up with a short-term solution , But Ethereum expansion has become an urgent matter .
Besides Ethereum, blockchain , And the so-called “ Ethereum killer ” Isoecology , Without expansion , Other chains have started to expand , Or as soon as it's online scaling Better than Ethereum .
But Ethereum has a strong Ecology , We should continue to roll the ecology forward , We need to develop our own ecology , And it's not just comparing yourself , Compare with others , It's competition in many dimensions .
from scaling The angle of ,2.0 My goal has not changed , The steps are accelerated , A little peer pressure . Everyone's expectation for Ethereum is that if Ethereum can become better , You don't need another chain , There's no need to move , We still hope that Ethereum can “ World computer ”、“ Financial light settlement ” It's a good role play .
Ethereum itself is not just a technical solution , Or the big Ecology , Ecology should give consideration to everyone's development , We all need ecology to do it . I think it's normal , From an engineering point of view , It's a bit slow to focus on whether it's theoretically feasible , I personally think it's better to speed up the lifting speed .
For me ,2.0 The goal has not changed , The route is speeding up . This is my understanding , thank you ！
jianqi （ host ）：
Thank you for answering the first question . Although the three guests mentioned their understanding of the film in the process 、 advance , And right Rollup A deeper understanding of technology has affected our understanding of Ethereum 2.0 How to promote the idea of . But we can also realize that the problem is very complicated , It's hard to say Ethereum in just a few ways 2.0 Our road map has changed completely , There is no doubt that changes have taken place on some levels .
I'd like to invite three guests to explain the following questions , For the changed Ethereum you envision 2.0 In the road map , Which step is the most difficult to achieve ？ Whether this problem is likely to lead to Ethereum 2.0 The overall progress is stagnant ？
Pan Zhixiong ：
Yao Xiang just said a lot about 2.0 What has it become , And some of them are still RND Stage . None of these discussions has been particularly adequate , And there is not so much material that you can discuss .
I think one of them is very difficult , How to 1.0 Merge into 2.0 The specific plan of the project ？ I think it goes beyond pure technology , It's involved in ecological applications 、 wallet 、 The miners 、 How nodes cooperate , What do you think of this plan .
I've talked about the merger many times offline , The similar scheme is a bit similar to 1.0 At the height of a certain block, the state is led to 2.0 In the network , But apart from the technical details , More about Ecological Applications , as well as 1.0 How the chain came to an end .
We are thinking , Is this plan too hard at present , Is it possible that the government RND Some are more suitable for you migration programme , For example, it's similar to Uniswap from V1 Cut to V2 It's a good case , Let users make their own two-way decisions , because V2 It's very functional , People are willing to go V2, Instead of being forced to V2. Now the solution is a bit like at some point in time , There's no place to choose , Can only go to 2.0 了 , but Uniswap It's not like that .
I think the merger needs more discussion at the moment , If not fully discussed, it may lead to some problems in the future .
Yao Xiang ：
I agree with Mr. Pan very much , He said part of what I'm going to say .
Every one of these is hard to achieve , So we need to break the dependency relationship . From my point of view, because it's hard , If one can't determine the progress by waiting for another , Let's do it in parallel , Which side will run out first and then adjust the direction , This is also a reasonable project promotion plan .
Mr. Pan just mentioned , Inside this 「 Merge 」 It contains more sociological consensus , Even think that the technical problems are not so important . As Ethereum applications continue to grow , Before the merger , Every other day , The difficulty and resistance to merger will become greater and greater , It's something that's hard to achieve .
If you want to get out of the roadmap , The hardest part is the decision-making of the road map , Why did it continue to study for more than two years ,2018 year 3 In June, I was in Taipei to discuss the content of the film , Today I reviewed a lot of things at the meeting , Very valuable , Do some sorting and archaeology , All the client teams are there , The top researchers have their own opinions .
Why is there such a big revision to the route more than two years later , And the fix was done in just a few minutes . You will see that I used to sort it out on wechat Note, Describes Ethereum 2.0 Achieve the second 52 period , The roadmap switch only takes 4 minute , There is also some silence . This makes people have to think about the reasons behind it ？ Personally, I think there are some problems in Ethereum's route decision-making .
I also sent a circle of friends yesterday , There is one Layer 2 project CTO Constantine is attacking Ethereum for its lack of Formal governance Formal governance , yes super centralized system. Many decisions will affect the actual working application code of developers .
The emergence of problems is not a problem , But the problem has to be on the table , If not on the table for discussion , I'm not optimistic about this progress .
In the past few years of research , Research team 、 The development teams are very smart people , They can deliver things , It's just that there's something about decision-making that needs to be discussed on the table .
This is my point of view .
Zheng Jialiang ：
Let me add a little bit . I have the impression that 2.0 The roadmap is the last Sharding After the realization of 1.0（1.X） Link to... As a fragment 2.0 in , It won't affect the original 1.0 Anything of ,1.0 and 2.0 It's parallel development . But the premise is Sharding Be sure to do well ,Sharding It's done here ,1.0 The ecology continues to flourish , Nothing needs to be changed now , Ethereum is still on its way to the future ,Sharding When it's done, it's directly incorporated into 2.0, All's well that ends well . But the premise is Sharding It must be realized .
Sharding In the case that technology can't guarantee that it will be realized in the future , It will lead to the failure of the existing ecological consolidation plan , If Sharding If it can't be finished, it's better to do a merge first . I guess for myself , It may be a more feasible choice .
If you don't press 123 The order of , If it's a parallel order ,Sharding It becomes optional rather than necessary . It's not just about blockchain Technology , It also depends on the technology of distributed systems in the future 2、3 Years of Sharding Is it possible to achieve some breakthroughs , such 2、3 Five years later, blockchain borrowed the technology improvement of distributed system , It's also possible to achieve Sharding 了 .
It turns out to be something like a foolproof solution ,Sharding In the end, whether implemented or not ,2.0 All mergers have to go ahead , The hard stuff will fall back , If not, it's OK to keep in shape , It's acceptable 2.0 state .
So , I would think Sharding There is no technical way to ensure that 2 To 3 It's going to come true in a few years , This will have a great impact on Ethereum ecology , Or from an ecological point of view .
jianqi （ host ）：
Thank you, three guests , Now to the second question , The amount of information given by the three is very large , Even though I'm the host , But I can't help but add one more sentence .
The question Mr. Yao recently raised in his circle of friends is like this , As you know, Ethereum's status data will continue to increase , In order to suppress the increase of state data , Ethereum's current choice of governance procedures is to improve the performance of some opcodes when hard fork upgrade is needed gas Consumption , Because many contracts presuppose their own gas What's the consumption? The contract works , opcode gas The change in consumption will cause them a lot of trouble , It can even directly break the contract , It's a split in Constantinople EIP1884 It's happened once before .
This problem is really a problem as Mr. Yao said , And the problem itself is not that big , But there should be a reasonable way to discuss it openly , You can't think that it doesn't matter at all , That's how we do things , It's a very irresponsible attitude .
For example, three teachers have just mentioned that the understanding of the roadmap will affect the answers to questions , Actually, it's a very complicated problem . Just now, three of you have mentioned that there are not only technical problems , How to achieve fragmentation , How to ensure the availability of the current system , It also includes a big problem , How to make people willing to move to the system in terms of social consensus .
There is a certain connection between these two aspects , If fragmentation is particularly good , People will have more confidence in the process . But if the slicing technology is right or wrong 2.0 If the specific implementation of the project is not very clear and can get the universally recognized answer , It's going to get harder .
This leads to the question , It's also an issue often mentioned when discussing the road map . In your opinion , You would think of Ethereum as complete 2.0 How long does it take to implement the roadmap ？ Or say , You can use 2.0 How long does it take ？
Pan Zhixiong ：
For example, seeing beacon chains , There is a one-year gap between the expected launch and the final launch , It was postponed for a year .
Let's look at some of the latest developments , Include Vitalik Recently released details about data fragmentation , Including Ethereum 2.0 The data fragmentation after the change is purely technical .
In history, a paper is sent out to the final execution , Generally at least 2 To 3 Years of time ,Rollup It's also , from 2018 In the middle and early years of the year Rollup Only then ,2021 year Rollup It's the stage that's just available , I am right. 2.0 I'm not particularly confident that the full version will be available , As Mr. Zheng just said , I really want to 2、3 It's not going to happen until a year later .
But on the contrary , Now the community understands one thing , A more practical and realistic expansion route does not depend on 2.0 Of Sharding, It depends on Rollup, because Sharding It's just 64 Data shard , however Rollup I've helped you improve 100 The performance of The Times （ Two orders of magnitude ）, There are some more Backup, There will be some room for improvement , such as TurboGeth And big blocks .
A hundred times or even hundreds of times increase has been a great influence on the development of the Internet for several years “ Quantitative change ” To “ qualitative change ” It's different , The community is no longer dependent on Sharding 了 , As long as we put Rollup Have a good time ,2 To 3 There shouldn't be a big problem .
I am right. ZK Rollup and Optimistic rollups I'm optimistic ,Rollup It's a system that can take into account both the interests of existing miners and 2.0 A path to innovation , It can not be said that the interests of miners must be taken into account , But miners can't change that , because Rollup There is no need to change the existing consensus , They have to be forced to accept Rollup programme .
Yao Xiang ：
I'm not as archaeological as I am today 、 Before you engage in deep community discussions , My understanding of many problems is one-sided .2018 Before I went to Prague for a meeting , At that time, I thought if it was 2.0 fast , It felt like there was nothing that could be delivered at the scene , Although one step further , But I'm still in a panic , I don't know how much of the expectation gives people the certainty of time .
The big problem is that the system framework is becoming more and more complex , Fewer and fewer people can understand , Fewer and fewer people can participate in the discussion , Maybe no more advice . I've been doing account abstraction recently （ The study of ）, It turns out that account abstraction is also 2.0 A very important part of the framework , When I was doing this, archaeology , A researcher wrote an article about the security of account abstraction “ Security Analysis ” The article , Revised geth The client of , Did DoS Attack drill , But no one replied to him , No one replies under the post. Is there a problem or something in it . But this article got Vitalik、Danny Ryan Guidance of , This article will be quoted in all literatures, saying that this is security analysis . But I don't think many people can understand , It takes a long time to really understand , In addition, he wrote his own client , How to verify whether the data of this client is so accurate ？ There may be more to do .
On this basis , If the system wants to be implemented safely , It's going to have to involve more people on a large scale , Discuss in a more equal position , I'm not particularly optimistic about this .
Teacher pan just mentioned that the whole system should go in a better direction , There is still hope for this , Not only is Rollup The plan , Now the bandwidth of the network is increasing , The speed of computer verification is increasing , Help the network more robust . In these five years , The throughput of Ethereum has improved significantly . Of course, it's hardware 、 The conditions are optimized at the bottom ,Rollup It's more about optimization in cryptography , These can be expected .
Historically speaking , Relatively perfect system goals are generally not achieved , It's just how to choose , Choose what we want in the middle, the degree of choice . The simplest solution is to implement the current smart contract system directly on the beacon chain , Let the beacon chain become an executable environment , But it's obviously not what you want , So it's not a very urgent goal , The current system is also available .
Zheng Jialiang ：
What the two teachers said just now reminds me of some things , Add up .
The earliest expansion plan of Ethereum was Layer 1 and Layer 2 Parallel , The first Sharding plasma, At that time, it was assumed that no matter in Layer 1 still Layer 2 We have to do everything , But now it's obvious to turn to Layer 1.5 For the core expansion , There must be some problems in the middle .
Remember 2019 Except for Layer 1、Layer 2 also Layer 0, A lot of projects are in 2019 in Layer 0 Capacity expansion , Optimize the block propagation speed , The sound will be relatively low recently , because Rollup It's too loud , hold Layer 0 The expansion of the communication protocol has covered the voice .
These things will still be turned out later , It's like 0、1、2 We'll choose the easiest solution to implement first , If we can't do it, we can find other feasible solutions . Now the Sharding Our expansion plan is put in the back , The first Layer 2 Make it out , If Layer 2 If it's difficult, you can do it Layer 1, If Layer 1 If it's difficult, do it Layer 0.
Just now Mr. Yao 、 Mr. Pan said that it can be used. Now it can be used , But not “ Better Ethereum ”, It's called “ Ethereum available ”, Not the Ethereum foundation 、 Community goals . It's complicated to expand , In especial Sharding part , Why? Rollup The plan is changing so fast ？ Feel easy to implement , In theory, it also holds water , Remember 2019 year Vitalik Posted an article , Just use zkSNARK Realization 500tps The goal of , yes ZK Rollup The prototype of .
2019 He has been very fond of the expansion plan since 2000 , stay Sharding We'll find a more reliable solution , We can't put all the expansion plans on one layer 、 In one case , Too dangerous for systems and solutions , This is a more realistic choice .
But really to achieve a particularly better Ethereum , Don't hope too much for time , It would be better to slow down .
jianqi （ host ）：
Although the three teachers did not give specific time , It is also hoped that the road map will become clearer over time , But they all point out that there are many directions for system improvement , No matter which aspect to improve , It's important to make improvements in a safe way , Guarantee to meet the pursuit of reliable system to the maximum extent .
Thank you very much for telling us the usual media discussion 、 The deeper issues not touched in the round table discussion , Whether it's Community Governance 、 Technical solution details 、 Ecological balance, the needs of all parties to achieve social consensus on the joint force , These problems are rarely touched before . that , What do you think of a complete form of Eth2.0 More than the current Ethereum blockchain “ good ”？ Or say , Where is it better ？
Pan Zhixiong ：
Relatively speaking, it can be measured , The most important indicator is performance , The etheric fang 2.0 It's just for capacity expansion , If this thing can not be done, there will be an order of magnitude improvement in performance , But if you can improve , At the same time, it can take security into consideration 、 The characteristics of decentralization , It can also be considered a good system .
Now Ethereum also has an embarrassing problem , If the market value is too high , It will lead to the ecology being more inclined to a higher amount of transaction scale orientation , A lot of high frequency 、 Low value ecology doesn't work at all , Further away from the vision . If the market value is lower , Whether it's PoW still PoS, There is a big trade-off between the security of the network .
Good news ？ Which aspects are better ？ There could be two directions .
1、PoS, Beacon chain is to realize PoS Part of the , Turn proof of workload into proof of rights and interests . This part of my view is more neutral , Ethereum itself is a sandbox of experiments , There's no logic to challenging new infrastructure .
Of course, there will be all kinds of trade-offs , There was a lot of discussion before . The problem will also involve PoS Is it good enough 、 Is it better . For now , Some projects have been implemented in history PoS 了 , But at least there's no clear proof PoS Certain ratio PoW Very good features .
2、 Data fragmentation （Sharding）. The original Sharding The solution is Sharding Do execution on the Internet , But now it's on the beacon chain for execution , How data fragmentation works , I don't know if there will be more discussions on this aspect 、 Verification is the only way to know the level of execution and whether it can be as good as the developers say .
Yao Xiang ：
Thank you, Mr Pan 、 Thank you, ah Jian . There's no perfect system , Most of the decisions are trade-offs , I was in Twitter Look up Bitcoin core Developers say it's impossible to get something perfect without paying anything , It's impossible , Ultimately it depends on what kind of system we need , Why is Ethereum recognized by the market instead of other public chains .
Of course , Everyone has their own point of view , There are many ways to explain , Like the community 、 The first mover advantage is various . From my point of view , Let's review 2.0 The design goal of ,design go Written in spec The design goal of the project .
Article 1 with a , Try to minimize the complexity , Even at the cost of losing some efficiency .
Second , When the main network partition （ China 、 The United States ） And when many nodes are offline , Ethereum is still alive .
Article 3 the , About cryptography , Hopefully, all the components are quantum computer resistant 、 It's quantum safe , At least it's easy to switch to a quantum safe counterpart , Maybe algorithms are not quantum safe right now , But in case the quantum computer comes out , It is easy to ensure that the system can be replaced when it is running .
Article 4. , You can use cryptography , With relevant engineering design, a large number of verifiers participate in a unit time , It's the goal of decentralization , Large scale verifiers , It can't be very few .
Article 5. , From the relationship between individuals and systems , Allow consumer grade laptops , Processing and verification with constant time complexity Sharding The fragmentation of , Including system level verification 、 Beacon chain .
Listen , It's all about security , Make sure there are enough people to keep the system safe , Verify everything that happens in the system , Even individuals can participate in the network . There are many public chains that can't run nodes on personal computers , Verify everything in history .
review 2.0 The design goal of , In addition to quantum resistance ,1.0 It's still OK Of , The only problem is that it's really not so usable . Back to performance , To solve the scalability problem under the condition that all conditions can be met , Solve the throughput problem . At this stage , My point is this Rollup It gives us a new choice , It's better to try first . Is it a hundred times the space of the system ？ You can see , At least it's better than the one that doesn't have a clear design 2.0 It's more urgent at this stage .
From my gut level , I don't really believe in anything , This is unlikely to exist . Since there are design goals , The design goal is the consensus of Ethereum core developers 、 Community consensus , Based on design goals .
Zheng Jialiang ：
There is no objection to the expansion , There's no problem with speed . The rest of the problem is 1.0 and 2.0 The problem of , Solving the problem of state explosion is also a direction , It must be solved . Thinking about it is actually PoS Is it better than PoW Good question , This is probably the core issue , There is no objection to the first two questions . Both in practice and in Mathematics ,PoW Security has been proven , Ethereum runs on such a consensus , There have been no problems for so many years, which proves something .
PoS Everybody loves , The new generation of blockchains will all choose PoS, Also use PoW It would look more like “ Antique ”, It's a little out of date , Can't keep up with the trend .
to turn to PoS There is no way , It's a big trend , This is a new direction for the public chain , Or that's how it was designed .PoS Well, there are more discussions in the community , It's just miners 、 Currency holder 、 What is the performance of the more important stakeholders among ecologists under different consensus ,PoS We need to verify the security of .
To put it bluntly , Different chain options PoS It's different , If a very small blockchain uses PoS It's really easy to be attacked , There may not be any problem with Ethereum , But it doesn't mean PoS There's nothing wrong with it , It can only represent the strength of Ethereum ecology . Some things will cover up other projects 、 The characteristics of Science , No problem doesn't mean no problem .
To discuss is to discuss PoS still PoW A more stable , But it's something that hasn't been decided for a long time . Since teacher a Jian asked , I'll throw it out , You can talk about it again .
jianqi （ host ）：
I saw three teachers “ A reluctant face “ He answered the question very well , Although the amount of information answered is still very large . In the four questions just now , The three guests covered the discussion of Ethereum in their answers to each question 2.0 All kinds of things that we'll talk about , Including multiple design goals 、 Important technical concepts （PoS、 Fragmentation ）, It also includes the issues that are of the greatest concern to the community , When Ethereum 2.0 Can really become usable , And when Ethereum 1.0 Ecology can move and merge into 2.0 In the system , And when to really achieve the ultimate development goal .
Every problem deserves a lot of discussion , Everyone can write an article to form a very complex point of view . But time is limited , Let's move on to the last question of the day , It's an extension of the problem mentioned by Mr. Pan and Mr. Yao just now ： In a very complex process of social consensus collaboration , There are so many variables , You think it's turning to Eth2.0 In the process of , Is it possible for the ecology of Ethereum to split the social consensus ？
Pan Zhixiong ：
Today is a very good day to talk about it , Bitcoin blockchain Schnorr Signature and Taproot The function has been released into the code .
Why talk about it ？ Let's see how bitcoin blockchain achieves the upgrading of social consensus .Schnorr and Taproot It's a function that was first proposed more than three years ago , Started a long sermon and introduction of the advantages 、 function 、 The need for .2020 Throughout the year of development , In depth communication between core developers and the largest mines .
Why? ？ Because the final activation of bitcoin blockchain still depends on computing power , After the core developers are happy, they need miners to check whether they want to support functions , Miners can not support functions . There are already checks and balances in the form of bitcoin networks , Developers and miners can find common interests .
At the other extreme , Some new blockchain projects 、 Blockchain networks are beginning to be governed on the chain , The need for social proposals through the token form of a large-scale poll vote , Let all system participants think whether this is good for the future of the system , This is the characteristic of governance on the chain .
Back to Ethereum , At present, Ethereum does not have such a mechanism , The core developers of Ethereum are centralized , It's centralized to manage these things , There was no broader communication with the community , There's no blockchain like bitcoin 、 The mechanism of governance on the chain looks for all participants 、 The common interests of the token parties . In Ethereum 1.0 Migrate to 2.0 Faults and bifurcations are still likely to occur in the process of development , Because Ethereum bifurcation is also quite easy , Just modify Geth client , There are always people who are convenient 、 It's easy to fork Ethereum .
And then there will be all kinds of naming rights 、 The issue of ownership of assets , It's been argued before , The development of Ethereum can't be divided at this stage , Because the assets and ecology are so huge , It's a very chaotic system . I think at least Ethereum ecology is 1.0 To 2.0 The most dangerous stage in the process from a historical point of view .
Yao Xiang ：
If you want to do migration in a more gentle way , Put the old chain on the State 、 Move assets to new chains , Maybe not too many problems , Everybody is “ Vote with your feet ”.
If it's a kind of “ You have to go through ” There are bound to be problems , The reason lies in PoW Under such a system , It can still run , If the miners are willing to , You can dig all the way down here , Except in extreme cases, ecological removal , Miners can still dig down here .
At this point in time, we are faced with a choice we have to make , When it happens that day, you have to make a choice , It's fun , It's a very dangerous and fascinating event , Tested a lot of things .
I've been listening a lot lately Bitcoin core developer Point of view , Talk about why they do it . Now there is no bitcoin Foundation , There used to be , It can be said that these developers are working on a voluntary basis , And someone donated , Giving doesn't change the will , There are not so many companies that are really willing to donate , It's a fun, big social experiment .
Back to Ethereum , Let's get out of the way , Consensus switching is a very important point of social consensus tearing . There has been enough discussion about it , It's very difficult to go deep today , At the same time, the views on both sides are clear , No one can convince anyone . At that time , If something dangerous happens , It's really going to happen that you vote with your feet , Even more extreme things .
I don't want to do too much deduction , Obviously, the safety and reliability of the new system need time to verify , People don't trust the new system enough to build it in a short time , We need to think about how to have a transitional stage . I don't want to deduce what happened , I talked about it in the offline discussion .
The traditional community should discuss matters , The cost of escape is high , There will be no division until we have to . For example, the class decides where to eat , You can't say I'm not going , Finally, we must choose a place for dinner , Or up to the national level, Parliament , Everybody vote , Choose a result , We all know that , In the process of recognition, through the rules of consciousness voting process , Express your will , It's up to you to decide . Ethereum doesn't do chain governance for its own reasons , It's reasonable , No problem .
But in the digital world, the cost of escaping the system is very low , It's not like in the real world, there's a lot of constraints on escaping from this place , There are constraints in the digital world, too , But the cost is much lower . for instance THE DAO Events are typical cases , Ethereum now costs much more to escape than it did back then , Still better than the traditional world 、 Low cost in the physical world .
Although we say it's hard for communities to fork out for the time being , But because the atmosphere is like this , If the cost of escape is very low, I am not willing to talk and communicate , Voices of opposition are easy to appear , It's hard to get together . No one in the mainstream is against it , If the consensus does not arise in our plea , There was no concession 、 Without compromise, it's hard to gain more respect and recognition , Maybe if we have a fight, we will recognize what it is , It will be better . If you don't talk , go , Not particularly good for both sides , The lack of debate does not mean that there is no consensus , Instead, the division is over .
to turn to 2.0 I have also made some observations about specific things recently , Now? 1.0 There is one Core Dev Meeting There is a summary page in Github On , Now this page is not well maintained , It turns out that every issue can see , What's the date of the first issue note What is it? ,video What is it? . It's on the second stop 99 period , There has been a 3、4 There's no maintenance for this period , No, note, No, video link, No one cares about this .
The latest meeting notes Tim I've been remembering , It will be placed in Twitter On , But no one will come up with Github On , It makes me feel a bit unacceptable . The meeting had always been Hudson In coordination with , From the first meeting until recently, he said he would retire to Tim. He said to seek new challenges , I think there are other reasons behind it , It's a personal guess , After all, it took so long , Choose to exit at this point in time .
meanwhile Vitalik I don't take part in 1.0 The meeting of , When did this happen ？ The last time he took part in 10 month 16 Japan , In Shanghai Meetup（ long-range ） After that, he didn't take part in 1.0 Conference , Concentrate on doing 2.0 Things about .
In a way 1.0 and 2.0 It's completely separated , People don't know each other so much about what they're doing ,1.0 What are developers doing 1.0sunset Things about ,2.0 Doing it sunrise Things about , We don't know each other so much about what we're doing .
This is my recent observation , Not very much Insight, I'll sort out some details recently , Because human nature can be found in details .
Zheng Jialiang ：
The first two teachers spoke very well , Let's talk about our own ideas .
First of all , split .
Many blockchains are afraid of splitting , Because other chains have been proposed for a long time to not bifurcate , Never diverge , Such as Tezos. For blockchain , Although bitcoin and Ethereum have split in history , But after all, they are chains of strong consensus , If a lot of chain consensus is very weak , Splitting once means that there will be no future for this chain in the future .
Even Ethereum 、 Big chains like bitcoin , There's no way to go through big splits too many times , It takes a long time to build a consensus 、 A lot of people 、 A lot of money 、 A lot of resources , Division is something we don't really want to see .
second , The differentiation of .
Differentiation happens all the time , Teacher pan wrote an article before, which is Layer 2 The question of standing in line ,Rollup You've been in the team , Divide into Optimistic rollups and ZK Rollup, Different technical solutions have been chosen . We think Ethereum virtual machine is more important , When the development environment doesn't change much , There are several well-known DeFi Project selected Optimistic rollups. Some people feel safe 、 If traceability is more important, we will choose ZK Rollup.
Now, the Ethereum foundation has two main categories Rollup The scheme compares the end water attitude , We will make our own future route according to our own choice betting, Because you don't know which Rollup It's going to be a goal in the end , Or two Rollup It will merge , It doesn't matter if it doesn't merge , As long as the interactivity does not affect the final completion of DeFi Of “ LEGO features ”.
People make choices all the time , The influence of choice is quite deep , It's not division , Each team 、 Everyone has different demands for blockchain , The appeal is reflected in the choice of different technological routes .
Some projects are more realistic , If you think it costs too much to move something , Try to choose the simplest solution , So I chose Optimistic rollups. You have different choices , There's no way to change that .
But there's a bottom line , Or don't split , You can choose different technical routes , But don't divide the community . For the Ethereum project, it's relatively deep binding , We all have the bottom line in mind , Don't think too much about splitting , But differentiation is inevitable .
This is my point of view , thank you ！
jianqi （ host ）：
Thank you for your answers at the round table , When I first accepted to chair this round table , I've talked to you about , I hope it will be discussed in this round table and rarely in other round tables 、 Don't dare to discuss or even be ignored , Presents the complexity of Ethereum development and ecology itself .
No matter which technology route you choose , No matter what you do , The complexity of ecology must be respected first , That's what we need to understand , Only by understanding can we find that ecology is really dynamic , The reason why we really chose .
Many of the issues mentioned today point to one point , What human beings do only involves group cooperation , It can't be separated from how people work in the system 、 Participation in collaboration in context , Inevitably, we need to learn from human history 、 Learning from the experience of predecessors completes social cooperation , Minimize friction and conflict , Building stronger social consensus , And even more widely .
No matter how much further we have to go in technology , There is still a long way to go in learning to cooperate with each other and social governance . This is where we can expect Ethereum , Indeed, Ethereum has proved to be worthy of our expectation in so many years of development .
Thank you for your answers to the five questions , So much for today's round table , Thank you for being here B My friends who are watching this live broadcast , Thanks again to beehive College for organizing such a good , So high quality , Such a deep round table , thank you ！
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